วันจันทร์ที่ 31 มกราคม พ.ศ. 2554

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On 01/30/11 03:27 PM, Jonathan wrote:
> As one of the "non-mathematicians" (as a physical chemist who teaches
> quantum mechanics and kinetics = nonlinear differential equations and
> systems of differential equations, I'm not sure that is quite the
> right term, but I think you get the idea), I thought I should chime
> in.
>
> 1) I think SAGE has an adequate plan.

I disagree.

> It is a community project. The
> successful open source projects I know about serve a need for the
> community(s) they serve, because the actual users contribute code that
> does what they want.

Firefox, OpenOffice and FreeBSD are all successful open-source projects, but
have a documented plans with at least projected time scales. If dates are
regularly missed, then one needs to determine if they were unrealistic, and so
allow more time for future plans. IMHO, Sage lacks a real direction/plan.

Developers don't just add whatever they fancy to Firefox. Just because someone
wants to be able to do something obscure in Firefox, their code does not get
committed to the core. Instead they write an add-on

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/developers/docs/getting-started

which is then available for download.

This keeps the basic Firefox code reasonably compact and easy to manage. If the
author of an add-on does not develop it further and it fails to work with more
recent versions of Firefox, then so be it.

Is solving Rubiks cubes really needed in Sage, or would that have been better if
it was an add-on, which people installed if they needed it?

It appears to me that if someone wants some quite obscure functionality in Sage,
they write code and it gets added to the library. That might be really useful to
that person, as they use it as part of their research. But IMHO, unless it is
generally useful to a reasonable number of people it should not be in Sage.

Put another way, there should be a discussion about what Sage needs, how urgent
it is, and a plan drawn up.

I thought porting Sage to Windows via Cygwin was seen as important, as it will
dramatically increase the number of users. But this seems to have stalled.

2.5 years ago (June 2008 to be precise), Mike Hansen said "The first step which
should be done within a few weeks is to get a Cygwin version of Sage for Windows."

http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/80cd1fa0c2f48eaa/94e06945347d6466?lnk=gst&q=cygwin+mike#94e06945347d6466

It was several months ago William said it would not take a lot of work if him
and Mike worked on it. IIRC, it would a couple of weeks of work. That was before
William start Psage, which seemed to be quite badly timed given the Cygwin port
status.

This Cygwin related page:

http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/6743

has not been updated for a year, and another one:

http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/wiki/CygwinPort

has not been updated for 4 months.

Michael Abshoff was *employed* to work on the Solaris port of Sage, yet went off
on a tangent and did things that interested him. I tried to help on the Solaris
port at that time, but got frustrated that changes Micheal knew of were not put
into Sage. I was simply wasting my time, so I gave up for a few years.

> The key here is
> that you need a few dedicated individuals directing the project and
> ensuring that it moves forward.

But that is not happening.

> For them it needs to be a nearly full-
> time job.

Not necessarily.

> I'm involved in the Jmol project and we depend on one
> person who does the bulk of the work. Finding these people is
> difficult because they need to be supported in some way. This means
> the software has to be important for a company or this person has to
> be an academic who can convince their institution that the work is
> worthwhile and scholarly.

I know in the case of the Solaris port, some body was convinced to pay Micheal
to do the port, but IMHO he did not do an alful lot. In fact, several of his
changes just made things more difficult.

> 2) I agree that SAGE could use more exposure. I have found it better
> for my teaching than Maple, which my institution has a license for. I
> can't speak of recent Mathematica editions, but I know that 15 years
> ago I found serious problems with it and gave up on it. Anyway, there
> are lots of people who could use SAGE, but there are two key issues:
> a) for Windows an install that runs in Windows as an application would
> be nice;

Agreed - see comments above.

I would like to introduce someone to Sage, but I'm wasting my time if she needs
to learn Linux, Solaris, or buy a Mac first. So I'm suggesting she use
Mathematica on Windows. As much as I don't like that idea, I don't feel able to
recommend Sage. If there was a Windows port, then I might change my mind.

> 3) I think the issue of crackpots and bad code dragging things down is
> not much of a problem.

I agree.

> My example may be a little slower than many people's because I also
> have very little time to contribute to this, but I still think you are
> unlikely to get really bad code included using the present model.

The lack of attention to detail worries me about some Sage developers. That's a
view shared by Peter Jeremy, when he said:

"I am very concerned at this "release it now, we'll make it work later" mentality."

http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/6456#comment:67

That's a different issue to crackpots. I agree they are not having an adverse
effect.

> Jonathan

Dave

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg

Upon a closer look at the symmetrica spkg I noticed a lot of other oddities. Particularly ironic is the fact that the binary that fails to link on your machine is actually not used. I've updated my spkg (http://www.stp.dias.ie/~vbraun/Sage/spkg/symmetrica-2.0.p6.spkg), can you give it another try and let me know if it works for you?

Volker

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Jason Grout
<jason-sage@creativetrax.com> wrote:
> On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:
>
>>
>> I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the
>> notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would
>> automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you
>> shouldn't have to touch the command line.
>
>
> That's an interesting opportunity.  Maybe the /src url, which apparently
> currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google code
> or github does.  We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit
> link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the
> changes, and then restart Sage.  Edits on the notebook repository are
> immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require kicking
> off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been
> hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br)
>
> It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the notebook.
>  I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user permission
> to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and checking
> in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public
> sagenb.org notebook live!)

Something like google code already lets you post patches, and it
shouldn't be too hard to have a buildbot going in the background
picking it up. For Python code the "build" overhead is minimal, and as
long as you're not editing element.pxd, the feedback time shouldn't be
too bad. (I wouldn't recommend rolling our own though unless we had
to.) Editing the notebook itself online might be a bit dicey, but
being able to swap out the backend is totally feasible (and something
we should add to the patchbot). There's also the question of how
little of Sage we could get away with copying to have many
simultaneous users editing code. I wonder if a de-duping filesystem
would be an easy solution. And for editing docstrings, adding
examples, etc. it's a real shame one can't do that online.

- Robert

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg

Hi Volker

On Feb 1, 2:27 am, Volker Braun <vbraun.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've made a trac ticket
>
> http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10719
>
> and an updated spkg:
>
> http://www.stp.dias.ie/~vbraun/Sage/spkg/symmetrica-2.0.p6.spkg

Thanks again. I tested your spkg. It doesn't work. You also need to
change makefile:

- $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -lm test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o
classical.o de.o
di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o
ma.o mee.o
mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o
mo.o mpp.o
mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o
peh.o
pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o
ppe.o
pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o
sab.o sb.o
sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o
tmh.o
tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o
zo.o
zykelind.o zyk.o -o test
+ $(CC) $(CFLAGS) test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o
de.o di.o
ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o
mee.o
mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o
mo.o mpp.o
mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o
peh.o
pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o
ppe.o
pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o
sab.o sb.o
sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o
tmh.o
tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o
zo.o
zykelind.o zyk.o -lm -o test

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg

On Feb 1, 2:27 am, Volker Braun <vbraun.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are you still using gcc 4.4.1? I'm actually surprised that you were able to
> compile the rest of Sage with that compiler.
>
> I've made a trac ticket
>
> http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10719
>
> and an updated spkg:
>
> http://www.stp.dias.ie/~vbraun/Sage/spkg/symmetrica-2.0.p6.spkg

Thanks. I'm using:
%gcc -v
Using built-in specs.
COLLECT_GCC=gcc
COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/usr/local/libexec/gcc/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/
4.5.1/lto-wrapper
Target: x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu
Configured with: ../gcc-4.5.1/configure
Thread model: posix
gcc version 4.5.1 (GCC

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

>> I think a cool thing would be a forum for users, where they can
>> present their work with sage and also interact and work together on a
>> project. ...

> Why don't you research open source web apps that
> could provide something like that?

preliminary:
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/emil/doc/Demo/

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

> > My suggestions for improvements would be:
> > Consolidate the forum. It is the main communication platform of the
> > project (together with the trac system). It might be a good idea to
> > reduce to maybe 3 google groups (Devel, Support, Users). One thing
> > that bogs me is that in the current groups there are lists with no new
> > postings for long time, and then there are other lists where postings
> > fall "off the radar" very quickly, because there is much traffic and
> > the listing on the front page is rather short. I don't know if this
> > debatable at all, but there are other and more flexible forum/mailing
> > list packages out there, which give more possibilities with user
> > interaction (like attachements).
>
> Deleting other forums might alienate the people that lobbied for their
> creation, and who do use them, so closing the other forums is not
> going to happen.

+1 also for those of us who don't want to wade through traffic in
disciplines somewhat far from our expertise.

>
> > Since it was said that sage needs more people with engineering
> > background:
> > I think a cool thing would be a forum for users, where they can
> > present their work with sage and also interact and work together on a
> > project. Something like Wolfram Demonstration project, but even more
> > community driven. So to say: give people the space to be an expert
> > user of sage and be a respected member of the community without being
> > a top notch programmer at sage-devel.
>
> That is a good idea.  Why don't you research open source web apps that
> could provide something like that?  I better there is something ready
> made, just likehttp://ask.sagemath.orgwas pretty much ready made.  I
> would be happy to provide the hardware resources to host something.

Making the interacts doable without logging in (on the docket, I know)
and then making the interact library MUCH more extensive than #9623
will make them (please review! I just need a review of a reviewer
patch!) will essentially give us a Demonstrations-like thing. It
might even be useful to have a server which only served low-load
interacts, interact.sagenb.org or something... for Mma Demos I think
you need both Player and to download the interact, as opposed to a
Geogebra applet one can just put in a webpage (which would also be
nice, but probably not practical for Sage).

Also, there definitely *is* space for such people at Sage, and there
are quite a few; however, many of them fill that role without posting
much on sage-devel. sage-support and sage-edu have many such
contributors. Most people I've met on the pedagogical side who use
Sage *use* it, and are glad they don't have to know much programming
to do so.

- kcrisman

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: post more

On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 02:49:03AM -0800, Robert Bradshaw wrote:
> +1 I might not consolidate to 2 lists, but the -algebra one at least
> is very low traffic and often highly relevant to sage-devel (and
> anything not mentioned here is probably even lower).

If I recall correctly, every message to sage-algebra is automatically
forwarded to sage-devel. Or was just an intention that we agreed upon
but did not actually get implemented?

By the way, shall we do the same for sage-combinat-devel?

Best,
Nicolas
--
Nicolas M. Thiéry "Isil" <nthiery@users.sf.net>
http://Nicolas.Thiery.name/

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg

Are you still using gcc 4.4.1? I'm actually surprised that you were able to compile the rest of Sage with that compiler.

I've made a trac ticket

http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10719

and an updated spkg:

http://www.stp.dias.ie/~vbraun/Sage/spkg/symmetrica-2.0.p6.spkg

Volker

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Sage 4.6.1 build failure in symmetrica-2.0.p5.spkg

Hi all,
I'm trying to compile Sage 4.6.1 on openSUSE 11.2 x86_64 and have encountered
the same bug I reported on May 16 last year with Sage 4.4.1.
http://www.mail-archive.com/sage-devel@googlegroups.com/msg38879.html
Th fix is to move "-lm" to the right place on the command line. See diff
below. How do I file a bug report for this, so that it is fixed properly?
Best, Paul

diff -rub symmetrica-2.0.p5//patches/makefile.patch
symmetrica-2.0.p5.new//patches/makefile.patch
--- symmetrica-2.0.p5//patches/makefile.patch 2010-01-07 12:25:08.000000000
+1100
+++ symmetrica-2.0.p5.new//patches/makefile.patch 2011-01-31
23:13:46.000000000 +1100
@@ -20,4 +20,4 @@
+ $(CC) -c $(CFLAGS) $<
test: test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o di.o ff.o galois.o
ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o mem.o mes.o mhe.o
mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o mps.o mse.o msh.o
msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o pem.o perm.o pes.o
phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o pph.o ppm.o ppp.o
pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o
tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o
tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o zykelind.o zyk.o
- gcc -DALLTRUE -DFAST test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o
di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o
mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o
mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o
pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o
pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o
sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o
tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o
zykelind.o zyk.o -lm -o test
-+ $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -lm test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o
di.o ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o
mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o
mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o
pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o
pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o
sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o
tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o
zykelind.o zyk.o -o test
++ $(CC) $(CFLAGS) test.c bar.o bi.o boe.o bruch.o classical.o de.o di.o
ff.o galois.o ga.o gra.o hash.o hiccup.o io.o ko.o list.o lo.o ma.o mee.o
mem.o mes.o mhe.o mhh.o mhm.o mhp.o mhs.o mmm.o mms.o mod_dg_sbd.o mo.o mpp.o
mps.o mse.o msh.o msm.o mss.o muir.o na.o nb.o nc.o nu.o part.o pee.o peh.o
pem.o perm.o pes.o phe.o phh.o phm.o phs.o plet.o pme.o pmh.o poly.o ppe.o
pph.o ppm.o ppp.o pps.o pr.o pse.o psh.o psm.o pss.o rest.o rh.o sab.o sb.o
sc.o sr.o ta.o teh.o tem.o tep.o tes.o the.o thm.o thp.o ths.o tme.o tmh.o
tmp.o tms.o tpe.o tph.o tpm.o tps.o tse.o tsh.o tsm.o tsp.o vc.o zo.o
zykelind.o zyk.o -lm -o test

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:36 AM, Jason Grout
<jason-sage@creativetrax.com> wrote:
> On 1/31/11 6:31 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Jason Grout
>> <jason-sage@creativetrax.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the
>>>> notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would
>>>> automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you
>>>> shouldn't have to touch the command line.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's an interesting opportunity.  Maybe the /src url, which apparently
>>> currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google
>>> code
>>> or github does.  We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit
>>> link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the
>>> changes, and then restart Sage.  Edits on the notebook repository are
>>> immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require
>>> kicking
>>> off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been
>>> hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br)
>>>
>>> It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the
>>> notebook..
>>>  I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user
>>> permission
>>> to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and
>>> checking
>>> in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public
>>> sagenb.org notebook live!)
>>
>> My thought is there would be two notebook servers running, the server
>> you editing from, and the test server with the new code.
>
>
> Ahh.  That would be both safer and probably (slightly?) harder to implement.

On a personal machine you probably don't need that for the rest of
Sage but I think you do for the notebook. I don't want to be editing
the notebook and then all the sudden not be able to edit anymore
because one of my edits broke the notebook.

Maybe a better first step is letting a personal machine user edit and
run something like a Django project from the notebook.

>
> Jason
>
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On 1/31/11 6:31 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Jason Grout
> <jason-sage@creativetrax.com> wrote:
>> On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the
>>> notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would
>>> automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you
>>> shouldn't have to touch the command line.
>>
>>
>> That's an interesting opportunity. Maybe the /src url, which apparently
>> currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google code
>> or github does. We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit
>> link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the
>> changes, and then restart Sage. Edits on the notebook repository are
>> immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require kicking
>> off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been
>> hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br)
>>
>> It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the notebook..
>> I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user permission
>> to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and checking
>> in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public
>> sagenb.org notebook live!)
>
> My thought is there would be two notebook servers running, the server
> you editing from, and the test server with the new code.


Ahh. That would be both safer and probably (slightly?) harder to implement.

Jason

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Jason Grout
<jason-sage@creativetrax.com> wrote:
> On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:
>
>>
>> I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the
>> notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would
>> automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you
>> shouldn't have to touch the command line.
>
>
> That's an interesting opportunity.  Maybe the /src url, which apparently
> currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google code
> or github does.  We already ship (an old version of) codemirror. The edit
> link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check in the
> changes, and then restart Sage.  Edits on the notebook repository are
> immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require kicking
> off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects I've been
> hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do sage -br)
>
> It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the notebook.
>  I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of user permission
> to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of the file and checking
> in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just anybody editing the public
> sagenb.org notebook live!)

My thought is there would be two notebook servers running, the server
you editing from, and the test server with the new code.

>
> Jason
>
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to
> sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On 1/29/11 9:52 AM, rjf wrote:
> Even assuming that the junk-submitter takes no time at all from
> project management on the "front end", the need to review
> "contributions"
> is certainly a drain. Realizing, and then explaining to some loser
> why his code is junk takes time.

Ironically, reading much of your post has been a less productive use of
my time than helping a motivated student learn from their mistakes and
teaching them how to improve themselves and the code they write. My
primary professional goal is to help *people* learn and improve
(including myself :).

Thanks,

Jason

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On 1/31/11 5:49 AM, Timothy Clemans wrote:

>
> I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the
> notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would
> automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you
> shouldn't have to touch the command line.


That's an interesting opportunity. Maybe the /src url, which apparently
currently shows the source tree, could have an "edit" link, like google
code or github does. We already ship (an old version of) codemirror.
The edit link could load the file into codemirror, allow an edit, check
in the changes, and then restart Sage. Edits on the notebook repository
are immediately live, and edits on the sage library would just require
kicking off a sage -br in the background (until some current projects
I've been hearing noises about fix that so that you don't have to do
sage -br)

It sounds possible, and almost immediately implementable for the
notebook. I suppose one nontrivial thing is maybe having some sort of
user permission to edit the notebook, and implementing the copying of
the file and checking in of changes (I certainly wouldn't want just
anybody editing the public sagenb.org notebook live!)

Jason

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On 1/30/11 4:42 PM, Jonathan wrote:
> Ivan,
>
> I am aware that you've been working on this. However, I have not had
> any time to look at it. If things go well with my classes and
> administrative responsibilities in the next couple of weeks I may get
> a chance. I am very glad you have worked on this.


I think it is on the download page, at least if you have 10.6:

http://boxen.math.washington.edu/sage/osx/intel/index.html

(see the -app download)

Jason


--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:18 AM, William Stein <wstein@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Timothy Clemans
> <timothy.clemans@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:48 AM, Simon King <simon.king@uni-jena.de> wrote:
>>> On 31 Jan., 07:13, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann <emil.widm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > But.
>>>> > I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using
>>>> > classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk
>>>> > submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of
>>>> > argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples"
>>>> > and  "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was
>>>> > positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and
>>>> > attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had  negative and
>>>> > defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt.
>>>> ...
>>>> > But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is
>>>> > right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of
>>>> > argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right
>>>> > and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And
>>>> > it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of
>>>> > categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public)
>>>> > forum about a volunteer open source project.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile I agree, and I apologise for providing some paragraphs about
>>> "losers". One should keep in mind that such categories are not
>>> objective and thus ought not to be applied to people (being volunteer
>>> for an open source project or not). And you are right that the output
>>> of a person (to which "right" and "wrong" might apply) must not be
>>> confused with the person itself.
>>>
>>>>  I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to
>>>> contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net
>>>> positive.   Seriously.  Anybody.  Your grandma.   Some people program,
>>>> some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write
>>>> documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the
>>>> way or teach us a lesson.
>>
>> This is Sage's number one strength IMHO. I'm unskilled and give up
>> quickly. However because of the culture and ease of building source
>> and editing it I was able to create the Notebook's registration page.
>> I think the key reason for encouraging unskilled contributors like
>> myself is you get important contributions like the Notebook
>> registration page that I doubt you would get otherwise. Heck Wikipedia
>> changed the world because it encourages  ANYONE to edit it.
>
> +1
>
>>
>> In my opinion making the Sage development process even easier could go
>> a long way. I've often recently thought that people should be able to
>> develop sage via the notebook without ever having to download Sage. I
>> don't have what it takes to successful extend the notebook to do that.
>> But it's at least an idea.
>
> It's a very good idea.   In fact, it's been suggested to me a few
> times in the last two months, most recently when I gave a talk to a
> bunch of undergrad applied math majors at UW.  They just *expected* it
> to be possible to edit Sage over the web, like one can edit Wikipedia,
> and were surprised when I said it wasn't yet implemented.
>
> I really hope we can figure out how to do this, this year.     What
> are the other *software* projects out there that can be dynamically
> edited through the web?
>

I don't know of ANY projects that do that.

http://wiki.sagemath.org/EasyQuickSageDevelopment

I think the first step is making it so one can easily edit the
notebook if they built Sage from source. The test notebook would
automatically be launched. Once you've launched the notebook you
shouldn't have to touch the command line.

I think the second step would be to create HG patches from the
notebook. Third step would be to create tickets, submit patches, etc
entirely from the notebook.

I have no interest in math anymore but I want to do web development
entirely from the web browser. And I want to be able to launch web
sites where ALMOST ANYONE can actively edit the site's code live. I
started working on a prototype for a WolframAlpha competitor yesterday
http://semanticeverything.ep.io/ and I want to make it so people can
develop the site from within the site itself.

>
>
> --
> William Stein
> Professor of Mathematics
> University of Washington
> http://wstein.org
>
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Timothy Clemans
<timothy.clemans@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:48 AM, Simon King <simon.king@uni-jena.de> wrote:
>> On 31 Jan., 07:13, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann <emil.widm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > But.
>>> > I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using
>>> > classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk
>>> > submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of
>>> > argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples"
>>> > and  "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was
>>> > positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and
>>> > attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had  negative and
>>> > defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt.
>>> ...
>>> > But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is
>>> > right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of
>>> > argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right
>>> > and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And
>>> > it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of
>>> > categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public)
>>> > forum about a volunteer open source project.
>>
>> Meanwhile I agree, and I apologise for providing some paragraphs about
>> "losers". One should keep in mind that such categories are not
>> objective and thus ought not to be applied to people (being volunteer
>> for an open source project or not). And you are right that the output
>> of a person (to which "right" and "wrong" might apply) must not be
>> confused with the person itself.
>>
>>>  I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to
>>> contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net
>>> positive.   Seriously.  Anybody.  Your grandma.   Some people program,
>>> some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write
>>> documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the
>>> way or teach us a lesson.
>
> This is Sage's number one strength IMHO. I'm unskilled and give up
> quickly. However because of the culture and ease of building source
> and editing it I was able to create the Notebook's registration page.
> I think the key reason for encouraging unskilled contributors like
> myself is you get important contributions like the Notebook
> registration page that I doubt you would get otherwise. Heck Wikipedia
> changed the world because it encourages  ANYONE to edit it.

+1

>
> In my opinion making the Sage development process even easier could go
> a long way. I've often recently thought that people should be able to
> develop sage via the notebook without ever having to download Sage. I
> don't have what it takes to successful extend the notebook to do that.
> But it's at least an idea.

It's a very good idea. In fact, it's been suggested to me a few
times in the last two months, most recently when I gave a talk to a
bunch of undergrad applied math majors at UW. They just *expected* it
to be possible to edit Sage over the web, like one can edit Wikipedia,
and were surprised when I said it wasn't yet implemented.

I really hope we can figure out how to do this, this year. What
are the other *software* projects out there that can be dynamically
edited through the web?

--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 1:48 AM, Simon King <simon.king@uni-jena.de> wrote:
> On 31 Jan., 07:13, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann <emil.widm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > But.
>> > I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using
>> > classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk
>> > submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of
>> > argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples"
>> > and  "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was
>> > positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and
>> > attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had  negative and
>> > defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt.
>> ...
>> > But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is
>> > right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of
>> > argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right
>> > and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And
>> > it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of
>> > categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public)
>> > forum about a volunteer open source project.
>
> Meanwhile I agree, and I apologise for providing some paragraphs about
> "losers". One should keep in mind that such categories are not
> objective and thus ought not to be applied to people (being volunteer
> for an open source project or not). And you are right that the output
> of a person (to which "right" and "wrong" might apply) must not be
> confused with the person itself.
>
>>  I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to
>> contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net
>> positive.   Seriously.  Anybody.  Your grandma.   Some people program,
>> some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write
>> documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the
>> way or teach us a lesson.

This is Sage's number one strength IMHO. I'm unskilled and give up
quickly. However because of the culture and ease of building source
and editing it I was able to create the Notebook's registration page.
I think the key reason for encouraging unskilled contributors like
myself is you get important contributions like the Notebook
registration page that I doubt you would get otherwise. Heck Wikipedia
changed the world because it encourages ANYONE to edit it.

In my opinion making the Sage development process even easier could go
a long way. I've often recently thought that people should be able to
develop sage via the notebook without ever having to download Sage. I
don't have what it takes to successful extend the notebook to do that.
But it's at least an idea.

Maybe a key goal should be to get at one commit of a patch written by
a quarter of students taking a class on Sage. Make Sage even more like
Wikipedia.

>
> I almost agree. You are certainly right about my grandma. But I met
> people who have substantial errors in their work and have a self-
> esteem that would not allow them to acknowledge that there was
> anything wrong at all. I don't mind the errors - it is the ignorance
> that I can't stand. It is tempting to try and teach such person, but
> the effort is wasted.
>
> One could argue that "such person drags other people down". But,
> convinced by what Emil and William said, I think one should better say
> that "some other people let themselves be dragged down". I guess there
> are ways of self-defense that allow one to keep a positive attitude,
> and that's better than to repulse someone.
>
> Cheers,
> Simon
>
> --
> To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
> URL: http://www.sagemath.org
>

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On 31 Jan., 07:13, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann <emil.widm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But.
> > I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using
> > classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk
> > submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of
> > argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples"
> > and  "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was
> > positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and
> > attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had  negative and
> > defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt.
> ...
> > But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is
> > right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of
> > argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right
> > and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And
> > it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of
> > categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public)
> > forum about a volunteer open source project.

Meanwhile I agree, and I apologise for providing some paragraphs about
"losers". One should keep in mind that such categories are not
objective and thus ought not to be applied to people (being volunteer
for an open source project or not). And you are right that the output
of a person (to which "right" and "wrong" might apply) must not be
confused with the person itself.

>  I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to
> contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net
> positive.   Seriously.  Anybody.  Your grandma.   Some people program,
> some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write
> documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the
> way or teach us a lesson.

I almost agree. You are certainly right about my grandma. But I met
people who have substantial errors in their work and have a self-
esteem that would not allow them to acknowledge that there was
anything wrong at all. I don't mind the errors - it is the ignorance
that I can't stand. It is tempting to try and teach such person, but
the effort is wasted.

One could argue that "such person drags other people down". But,
convinced by what Emil and William said, I think one should better say
that "some other people let themselves be dragged down". I guess there
are ways of self-defense that allow one to keep a positive attitude,
and that's better than to repulse someone.

Cheers,
Simon

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

วันอาทิตย์ที่ 30 มกราคม พ.ศ. 2554

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Emil Widmann <emil.widmann@gmail.com> wrote:
> But.
> I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using
> classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk
> submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of
> argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples"
> and  "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was
> positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and
> attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had  negative and
> defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt.
>
> What shall people think who have just learned about sage and consider
> to spend time with the project? They might read this. Will they feel
> comfortable under the argus eyes of the "top producers" , or will they
> shrink under the burden to prove to be a winner and not a loser - or
> even worse: "a bad apple". Or - will they just leave and move on?

They should read this. Prof. Fateman opinions about Sage developers
and how they should be judged carries little weight among the people
who actually run the Sage project.

** Fateman does not speak for the Sage project. ** (maybe he
should add that to his signature)

In contrast, I do. (I started the Sage project, and run some
things...) I think absolutely *anybody* has the potential to
contribute usefully to the Sage project, and for it to be a net
positive. Seriously. Anybody. Your grandma. Some people program,
some people find bugs, some find typos in documentation, some write
documentation, and some write bug-riddled prototypes that point the
way or teach us a lesson. That's all useful.

You're absolutely right that people reading the Sage lists and seeing
Fateman spout off could easily not want to contribute to Sage as a
result. So it's extra valuable that you wrote your email to provide
some perspective.

> Prof. Fateman is entitled to his opinion. It is obviously based on
> long professional experience, and he can claim his experience proves
> him right.

His experience is not based on him actually successfully having led
any nontrivial open source software development projects. He has no
credentials at all there, as far as I know. Yet, he is speaking
about exactly that topic.

> But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is
> right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of
> argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right
> and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And
> it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of
> categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public)
> forum about a volunteer open source project.

+1

>
> Some points were made:
> about a better webpage, about a better logo, about having a plan,
> about other things that are not as perfect as they could be. I think
> basically things are pretty good, but sure, there is always room for
> improvement.
>
> My suggestions for improvements would be:
> Consolidate the forum. It is the main communication platform of the
> project (together with the trac system). It might be a good idea to
> reduce to maybe 3 google groups (Devel, Support, Users). One thing
> that bogs me is that in the current groups there are lists with no new
> postings for long time, and then there are other lists where postings
> fall "off the radar" very quickly, because there is much traffic and
> the listing on the front page is rather short. I don't know if this
> debatable at all, but there are other and more flexible forum/mailing
> list packages out there, which give more possibilities with user
> interaction (like attachements).

Deleting other forums might alienate the people that lobbied for their
creation, and who do use them, so closing the other forums is not
going to happen.

> Since it was said that sage needs more people with engineering
> background:
> I think a cool thing would be a forum for users, where they can
> present their work with sage and also interact and work together on a
> project. Something like Wolfram Demonstration project, but even more
> community driven. So to say: give people the space to be an expert
> user of sage and be a respected member of the community without being
> a top notch programmer at sage-devel.

That is a good idea. Why don't you research open source web apps that
could provide something like that? I better there is something ready
made, just like http://ask.sagemath.org was pretty much ready made. I
would be happy to provide the hardware resources to host something.

> The goal to be a "viable alternative" to the M's can only be reached if
> it is accepted by users, not only in mathematics but also in applied
> mathematics. It will be accepted if sage as a tool is accepted in the
> respective "peer group". But the only chance to get this acceptance is
> also to acknowledge those people as "peers", as members of the sage
> community and not hinder that by artificial preconceptions about
> intellectual aptness.

+1

> I am no mathematican and I am no programmer.
>
> Emil Widmann

I really appreciate a posting from a non-mathematician non-programmer.


--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

> > I believe there is an emerging discipline of computational
> > mathematics which requires both a deep mathematical background
> > and a deep programming background. Sage could make the claim
> > that it is a good basis for an interdisciplinary degree or
> > even a separate department that provides an equal focus on
> > both subjects. If Sage, with both its mathematical and
> > algorithmic focus, was brought forward to the NSF as a
> > broad-curriculum basis I believe it could be funded as such.
>
> I think you are right. Here's a "little lemma" that points in that direction:
>
> http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=1020687&WT.z_pims_id=5741
>
> and
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbuzzard.ups.edu%2Fprivate%2Fnsf-ccli-proposal.pdf&ei=Yh1GTfiTN4n0tgP5pfWOCg&usg=AFQjCNFXFihZ_7BhSIDN2-yH9iUFbm3HDA
>

This is very interesting but does not differ a lot from the Mathematica
approach. While I was at City College in New York I saw Mathematica
used in many of the ways you are describing, including the inclusion
of textbooks with examples, the MMA website, and in-class examples
that are dynamic.

One suggestion is to expand the proposal into areas that MMA cannot
cover. Everything you've suggested seems to apply to courses in or
near the math department. It might be useful to expand the proposal
to include the cross-discipline work from the computer science point
of view. More work needs to be done to talk about algorithms, their
development, their efficiency, and ways that algorithms can be
embedded in a mathematical type hierarchy. Textbooks that are
oriented toward teaching mathematical algorithms in computer science
courses would be valuable. I had a lot of this in my background because
there was no such discipline as computer science; the courses were all
taught by mathematicians. So, naturally, we learned how to program
using gauss-seidel, method of false position, newton-raphson iterations,
and other strictly mathematical algorithms. All we had was Fortran and
Lisp. They no longer teach such mathematical algorithms in "computer
science". I think that Sage could reach out to the computer science
departments and introduce core Sage algorithms as a good basis for
teaching.

Optimally, there would be a separate department and degree for
computational mathematics. The subject is deep, wide, vital, and
would clearly represent a separate discipline. CompSci does not
care about the algebraic issues and Math does not care about the
language and embedding issues.

I would expect the NSF to fund this as it sits squarely in the
center of their mandate.

In any case, this Sage effort you suggested above has my endorsement,
for whatever that's worth.

Tim Daly


--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

Dear sage-devel,

in this thread there were some comments concerning very general
aspects of human interaction and value. I am no mathematician and I am
no programmer, nevertheless I feel urged to voice my opinion.

A technical project in the scope of sage is also intrinsically tied to
a social project. State, potential, sustainablility, success or
failure of the technical implementation will always depend on the
overall quality of the "social ecosystem" out of which it is
implemented.

I have the impression that the Sage project is a very healthy one,
with great achievements in a short span of time. Compared with other
open software projects it also has a good "corporate identity",
homepage, documentation, distribution channels and an active base of
contributors and users. This relative success is in my opinion founded
in the friendly, cooperative and encouraging tone prevailing in the
communications.

I am aware that talent is not evenly distributed. I am aware that some
people will have far greater potential than others. I am aware that
the gifted will write breathtaking short, clear and concise code that
works, while others will just produce heaps of a buggy mess. I am
aware that this project is based in an academic environment, with a
pronounced intellectual pecking order.

But.
I strongly resent the comments and "spirit" of Prof. Fateman. Using
classifications like "losers" and "winners", "top producers" and "junk
submitters" he introduces very elitist terminology and patterns of
argumentation into this thread. This spawned terms like "bad apples"
and "crackpot" and moved the focus of the thread. Before it was
positive and open minded with the goal to spread the word of sage and
attract new people for contribution. Afterwards it had negative and
defensive tone and - worst of all - was full of doubt.

What shall people think who have just learned about sage and consider
to spend time with the project? They might read this. Will they feel
comfortable under the argus eyes of the "top producers" , or will they
shrink under the burden to prove to be a winner and not a loser - or
even worse: "a bad apple". Or - will they just leave and move on?

Prof. Fateman is entitled to his opinion. It is obviously based on
long professional experience, and he can claim his experience proves
him right. But sometimes it is not only important if an opinion is
right or wrong, but also which words, phrasings, lines of
argumentation or more general "categories of thinking" are used. Right
and wrong are just relevant in reference to a specific framework. And
it is my strong opinion, that this specific intellectual framework of
categorizing people should not be used on a public (or semi public)
forum about a volunteer open source project.

Some points were made:
about a better webpage, about a better logo, about having a plan,
about other things that are not as perfect as they could be. I think
basically things are pretty good, but sure, there is always room for
improvement.

My suggestions for improvements would be:
Consolidate the forum. It is the main communication platform of the
project (together with the trac system). It might be a good idea to
reduce to maybe 3 google groups (Devel, Support, Users). One thing
that bogs me is that in the current groups there are lists with no new
postings for long time, and then there are other lists where postings
fall "off the radar" very quickly, because there is much traffic and
the listing on the front page is rather short. I don't know if this
debatable at all, but there are other and more flexible forum/mailing
list packages out there, which give more possibilities with user
interaction (like attachements).

Since it was said that sage needs more people with engineering
background:
I think a cool thing would be a forum for users, where they can
present their work with sage and also interact and work together on a
project. Something like Wolfram Demonstration project, but even more
community driven. So to say: give people the space to be an expert
user of sage and be a respected member of the community without being
a top notch programmer at sage-devel.

The goal to be a "viable alternativ" to the M's can only be reached if
it is accepted by users, not only in mathematics but also in applied
mathematics. It will be accepted if sage as a tool is accepted in the
respective "peer group". But the only chance to get this acceptance is
also to acknowledge those people as "peers", as members of the sage
community and not hinder that by artificial preconceptions about
intellectual aptness.

I am no mathematican and I am no programmer. I hope I didn't *drag
somebody*. And if Prof. Fateman reads until here: Sorry for stealing
your precious time.

Emil Widmann

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: [jbarr at amazon.com: Sage is now running on Amazon EC2]

On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Dan Drake <drake@kaist.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 at 12:13PM -0800, Eviatar wrote:
>> Would this be a possibility for the public notebook servers, or just
>> for educational purposes?
>
> You'd have to ask the Amazon people, but Jeff sounded pretty excited

I think Jeff *is* one of the Amazon people. (He even audited my Sage
class some last quarter.)
This would be a win for everybody.

> about getting Sage running on EC2 -- so my guess is that if you're
> running a public notebook server at a university, they would be willing
> to make some kind of deal.
>
> Dan
>
> --
> ---  Dan Drake
> -----  http://mathsci.kaist.ac.kr/~drake
> -------
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk1F/uMACgkQr4V8SljC5LoKuwCdF9fZOnnbho81kPSj1g0KMNpU
> 5vUAniPPzaMcy154+XlCwDZ0olqxs0BE
> =n8+V
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>

--
William Stein
Professor of Mathematics
University of Washington
http://wstein.org

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 5:20 PM, daly <daly@axiom-developer.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 2011-01-30 at 13:52 -0800, William Stein wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:23 AM, daly <daly@axiom-developer.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> 3) I think the issue of crackpots and bad code dragging things down is
>> >> not much of  a problem. The reason is that it takes quite a bit of
>> >> perseverance to get code into Sage.  My experience with my Jmol
>> >> contributions is an example.  I would not claim to be the best coder,
>> >> but think my Jmol contributions addressed some issues people had.
>> >> And certainly the code is not yet ideal, but it does do most of what I
>> >> understood people to want.  Because of the load on people doing
>> >> testing, it has taken months to get much feedback on it.  This means
>> >> anybody submitting code has to be willing to stick with it and prod it
>> >> along over the long term.  People who are not serious won't do this.
>> >> My example may be a little slower than many people's because I also
>> >> have very little time to contribute to this, but I still think you are
>> >> unlikely to get really bad code included using the present model.
>> >
>> > To quote the above "This means anybody submitting code has to be
>> > willing to stick with it and prod it over the long term".
>> >
>> > The real problem with Sage's development model will not show up
>> > for a few years.
>>
>> How long do you mean by "a few years"?
> The major packages, Maxima, Reduce, Axiom, Mathematica, Maple,
> and others of that ilk are 30+ years old. So I would define
> "a few years" as the time it took the project to move from
> the primary authors to a "second generation" support role.
>
> How long will this take for Sage? Well, as I recall you have
> said that you plan to move on to doing number theory work
> rather than system development. Indeed, I suspect that the
> pSage effort is a first move in that direction.

I've written thousands of lines of code in the last few months. And
I'm currently organizing (and actively participating in) numerous Sage
development workshops this year.

>> >  At the moment most of the code being contributed
>> > is supported by the original authors.
>>
>> I don't know what you're basing this vague claim on...
>>
>> >  The algorithms are complex
>> > and some implementations are only competitive when optimized into
>> > Cython, despite the "Sage is Python" mantra.
>>
>> There is no "Sage is Python" mantra.      Sage is a mathematical
>> software system, some parts of which are written using Python, and the
>> interpreted user language of Sage is indeed Python.
> Umm...ok. It has been my impression that "Sage is Python" has been
> one of the major bullet points of the project. I remember a discussion
> about rewriting things like integration into python. But my memory is
> not what it used to be so perhaps I'm mistaken.

You're right, there are many, many discussion about implementing
algorithms in Python. I think that's different than "Sage is
Python", whatever that means.

>> > The real problem will arise when these authors leave the project.
>> > Code rots. People make simple changes. Linux changes libraries.
>> > Who will be able to debug research-level elliptic curve code
>> > when some minor, unrelated change breaks it?
>>
>> I can easily think of at least a dozen people immediately.  But given
>> that you're worried about "a few years", and you didn't define what
>> this phrase means, it's perhaps not possible to answer your question.
>
> There is a distinction between "those who can" (e.g. Victor Miller)
> and "those who will", especially if the bug is upstream. Tracing a
> bug through the inheritance hierarchy, into Cython, and then into
> an upstream linked library is not a trivial exercise.

New people pop up regularly who can do that. If anything, youth, a
fresh perspective, and the desire to fix the bug "no matter what" is
vastly more valuable than being the original author. At the last
Sage "Bug Days" (http://wiki.sagemath.org/days27) there were at least
10 people who I had never met before there, and some of them did
"trace a bug through the inheritance hierarchy, into Cython, and then
into an upstream linked library"... The best thing to do for Sage is
to make it more and more developer friendly, open, and encourage more
people to get involved. The typical talented and highly motivated
people (especially the grad students and young postdocs) that come to
Sage Days are often better at fixing difficult bugs in Sage than I am,
because they are so motivated, they know enough math and programming
background, and they can *think* clearly and logically. That's all
it takes.

> Pick a python-implemented algorithm of high complexity and we can
> reconsider the point, possibly algorithms with subfield structures
> and uniqueness of finite fields? Surely there must be some high
> complexity algorithm in python that depends on upstream libraries.
> Choose one.

I can't think of any, except _maybe_ in graph theory, maybe (see
networkx). I think this is because Sage is the nearly the only
project that implements sophisticated non-numerical mathematics
algorithms directly in Python. There's tons of numerical code in
Python (e.g., scipy, numpy, cvxopt, etc.), but that's certainly not
the foundation for anything like "subfield structures and uniqueness
of finite fields".

> In both cases the forks conflicted with published project goals.
> If I started rewriting Sage into Lisp, for instance, we would
> eventually have a parting of the ways and my only alternative
> would be to fork Sage, as that would conflict with project goals.

It depends on what you implemented in Lisp and if was useful. If you
sat down and implemented some algorithm in Lisp to compute some
interesting function f(N) say (e.g., say f(N) = number of partitions
of N), and it was better than the code in Sage already, we would be
happy to include it in Sage. We do ship ecl (=embedded common lisp)
as a standard component of Sage, and there are no plans to ever change
this. We also ship a working Cython library interface to ecl, which
is supposed to be fairly powerful, and would make it possible to call
your f(N) very efficiently from the Sage prompt, with no fragile or
stupid overhead.

So far as I know, the only lisp code in Sage, is code that is in
Maxima. However, I don't see at all why it isn't conceivable that
there could be a lot of new interesting Lisp code in Sage, were people
able to actually find any good ways to make use of Lisp.

Recently, Bill Hart has been experimenting with using Lisp to
implement highly optimized mini-languages. Supposing he has some
breakthrough, I could certainly imagine one of these languages
actually getting included in Sage, and being used by people. If it
is genuinely useful...

> So that's the report you asked for. I don't know if creating
> a divergence from the stated project goals would be correctly
> characterized as "scaring off most of the contributors" but you're
> welcome to your own description of the process.
>
> Now that we've gotten past the axiom-directed non-issue I again ask:
> How do we architect systems to survive the loss of the authors?

I think a better question is: "How do we architect systems to
encourage new people to join the project?" Instead of worrying
about a negative, we instead focus on a positive, which more than
cancels out a negative. Your question is like "How do we architect
a company to survive the loss of the customers?" when instead one
should ask "How do we architect a company to encourage new customers
to buy our products?"


>> > How do we architect systems to survive the changing platforms?
>> > Will Sage live?
>>
>> It will have at least a 6-year lifespan.  :-)
>
> Well I believe that you have the basis for an existence proof
> of your statement. :-)
>
> I believe there is an emerging discipline of computational
> mathematics which requires both a deep mathematical background
> and a deep programming background. Sage could make the claim
> that it is a good basis for an interdisciplinary degree or
> even a separate department that provides an equal focus on
> both subjects. If Sage, with both its mathematical and
> algorithmic focus, was brought forward to the NSF as a
> broad-curriculum basis I believe it could be funded as such.

I think you are right. Here's a "little lemma" that points in that direction:

http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward.do?AwardNumber=1020687&WT.z_pims_id=5741

and

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbuzzard.ups.edu%2Fprivate%2Fnsf-ccli-proposal.pdf&ei=Yh1GTfiTN4n0tgP5pfWOCg&usg=AFQjCNFXFihZ_7BhSIDN2-yH9iUFbm3HDA

> In fact, as an open source effort, Sage offers what Mathematica
> and Maple cannot, namely the ability to see and modify the
> algorithms. From that we can train "computational mathematicians".
> Eventually we might not have to ask "I'm a programmer..." style
> questions. We need only look for a Bachelors of Computational
> Mathematics degree. This might require a proposal involving
> several universities and, unfortunately, I am not in a position
> to write proposals for NSF grants (I've asked several times).
>
> So I'm suggesting that there is an opportunity to think big
> (whole degree programs), long term (30+ years), and fundamental
> (how to architect for survival).

There is a degree program at University of Washington called "Applied
and Computational Mathematics" -- http://www.math.washington.edu/acms/
It's pretty popular. I gave an ACMS seminar talk on Sage a few
weeks ago, which was very well received. Perhaps someday Sage will
infiltrate the ACMS program further, when Sage curriculum materials
exist that make it more friendly for applied math... (MATLAB is
clearly still more user friendly and more curriculum materials exist,
than with Numpy/Scipy/Sage, and MATLAB exists on Windows.)

> Axiom, by the way, has exactly these goals. But I welcome and
> encourage the competition as I think it will help us all.

Me too. I encourage you. :-)

-- William

--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org

[sage-devel] two simple reviews

Inspired by Robert Bradshaw's link to his patchbot patches [1], I looked
through my own and see two easy reviews. These both could be merged for
4.6.2:

http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/10440 preparser does not
correctly identify encoding lines

http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/9614 "-sdist" should complain
or fail when run in a "-bdist" copy of Sage

I'd really appreciate it if someone reviewed them!

Thanks,

Dan

[1] http://sage.math.washington.edu:21100/ticket/?author=robertwb

--
--- Dan Drake
----- http://mathsci.kaist.ac.kr/~drake
-------

Re: [sage-devel] Re: FAQ suggestion: I'm a programmer, how can I contribute to Sage?

On Sun, 2011-01-30 at 13:52 -0800, William Stein wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:23 AM, daly <daly@axiom-developer.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> 3) I think the issue of crackpots and bad code dragging things down is
> >> not much of a problem. The reason is that it takes quite a bit of
> >> perseverance to get code into Sage. My experience with my Jmol
> >> contributions is an example. I would not claim to be the best coder,
> >> but think my Jmol contributions addressed some issues people had.
> >> And certainly the code is not yet ideal, but it does do most of what I
> >> understood people to want. Because of the load on people doing
> >> testing, it has taken months to get much feedback on it. This means
> >> anybody submitting code has to be willing to stick with it and prod it
> >> along over the long term. People who are not serious won't do this.
> >> My example may be a little slower than many people's because I also
> >> have very little time to contribute to this, but I still think you are
> >> unlikely to get really bad code included using the present model.
> >
> > To quote the above "This means anybody submitting code has to be
> > willing to stick with it and prod it over the long term".
> >
> > The real problem with Sage's development model will not show up
> > for a few years.
>
> How long do you mean by "a few years"?
The major packages, Maxima, Reduce, Axiom, Mathematica, Maple,
and others of that ilk are 30+ years old. So I would define
"a few years" as the time it took the project to move from
the primary authors to a "second generation" support role.

How long will this take for Sage? Well, as I recall you have
said that you plan to move on to doing number theory work
rather than system development. Indeed, I suspect that the
pSage effort is a first move in that direction.

However, a good computational mathematics platform is a
"forever" thing in the sense that the results it gets ought
to be forever valid. So given the difference between the
startup timeframe and the lifetime timeframe of Sage there
is a question of how to survive that transition.

>
> > At the moment most of the code being contributed
> > is supported by the original authors.
>
> I don't know what you're basing this vague claim on...
>
> > The algorithms are complex
> > and some implementations are only competitive when optimized into
> > Cython, despite the "Sage is Python" mantra.
>
> There is no "Sage is Python" mantra. Sage is a mathematical
> software system, some parts of which are written using Python, and the
> interpreted user language of Sage is indeed Python.
Umm...ok. It has been my impression that "Sage is Python" has been
one of the major bullet points of the project. I remember a discussion
about rewriting things like integration into python. But my memory is
not what it used to be so perhaps I'm mistaken.

>
> > The real problem will arise when these authors leave the project.
> > Code rots. People make simple changes. Linux changes libraries.
> > Who will be able to debug research-level elliptic curve code
> > when some minor, unrelated change breaks it?
>
> I can easily think of at least a dozen people immediately. But given
> that you're worried about "a few years", and you didn't define what
> this phrase means, it's perhaps not possible to answer your question.
There is a distinction between "those who can" (e.g. Victor Miller)
and "those who will", especially if the bug is upstream. Tracing a
bug through the inheritance hierarchy, into Cython, and then into
an upstream linked library is not a trivial exercise.

>
> > Who will even know that it is broken? Is it broken now?
>
> Yes, it is broken. It's computer software, after all.
>
> > And since the Sage code base is owned by other people with other
> > goals, that is, all of the spkg files from upstream projects,
> > the potential for code rot is much larger and the debugging
> > problem is much harder.
>
> And for exactly these reasons there are far more people involved in
> fixing bugs in various parts of Sage. If you total all the people who
> have worked on code that is part of Sage during the last year, you
> would likely easily get over 1000 programmers. I bet you can't say
> that about Axiom (and perhaps not about Mathematica, Matlab or Maple,
> either.) Also, the modularity of Sage makes the problem easier in
> some ways.
>
> > Is the elliptic curve code failure due
> > to Sage-owned python changes or spkg changes?
>
> Sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes both.
>
> > What happens when
> > python itself changes and upstream packages make the move to
> > python 3.0?
>
> There are no Python packages at all in Sage that involve elliptic curves.
I agree that you win the pedantic point about elliptic curves in python.

Pick a python-implemented algorithm of high complexity and we can
reconsider the point, possibly algorithms with subfield structures
and uniqueness of finite fields? Surely there must be some high
complexity algorithm in python that depends on upstream libraries.
Choose one.

>
> But incidentally, when the Python dependencies of Sage fully support
> Python 3, then Sage probably will too. Matplotlib is a biggie that
> we're waiting on.
>
> > The problem isn't "really bad code". The problem is code rot.
>
> Both are problems.
>
> > What does a programmer need to know to maintain the system?
> > How can a new programmer join the project and contribute?
> > If it is not easy now it won't be possible later.
>
> That's an opinion.
>
> > How do we architect systems to survive the loss of the authors?
>
> Was scaring off most of the contributors to Axiom a few years ago a
> way for you test your theories on this? Maybe you could report on
> how that turned out.
Well, I suppose you could consider that the 2 forks of Axiom were
motivated by "scaring off contributors".

One of the forks has the same goal as Sage which, if I recall correctly,
is to compete with Mathematica. Axiom never had a project goal of
competition and this was a point of contention. That fork is still
available but I don't think Mathematica is feeling the heat.

The second fork had a goal of adopting existing code structuring
standards (autoconf/config/make/make-install) and maintaining and
extending the internal Boot language. Axiom has a project goal of
being fully literate which conflicts directly with the idea of
tiny-files-in-many-directories development. Axiom has a project
goal of a single language (Lisp) which conflicts directly with
the Boot language. That fork is still available but I don't know
if the Lisp code has been rewritten into Boot. I suspect not,
as Boot is a language nobody speaks.

In both cases the forks conflicted with published project goals.
If I started rewriting Sage into Lisp, for instance, we would
eventually have a parting of the ways and my only alternative
would be to fork Sage, as that would conflict with project goals.

So that's the report you asked for. I don't know if creating
a divergence from the stated project goals would be correctly
characterized as "scaring off most of the contributors" but you're
welcome to your own description of the process.

Now that we've gotten past the axiom-directed non-issue I again ask:
How do we architect systems to survive the loss of the authors?


>
> > How do we architect systems to survive the changing platforms?
> > Will Sage live?
>
> It will have at least a 6-year lifespan. :-)

Well I believe that you have the basis for an existence proof
of your statement. :-)

I believe there is an emerging discipline of computational
mathematics which requires both a deep mathematical background
and a deep programming background. Sage could make the claim
that it is a good basis for an interdisciplinary degree or
even a separate department that provides an equal focus on
both subjects. If Sage, with both its mathematical and
algorithmic focus, was brought forward to the NSF as a
broad-curriculum basis I believe it could be funded as such.
The NSF has a goal of supporting such broad educational efforts.

In fact, as an open source effort, Sage offers what Mathematica
and Maple cannot, namely the ability to see and modify the
algorithms. From that we can train "computational mathematicians".
Eventually we might not have to ask "I'm a programmer..." style
questions. We need only look for a Bachelors of Computational
Mathematics degree. This might require a proposal involving
several universities and, unfortunately, I am not in a position
to write proposals for NSF grants (I've asked several times).

So I'm suggesting that there is an opportunity to think big
(whole degree programs), long term (30+ years), and fundamental
(how to architect for survival).

Axiom, by the way, has exactly these goals. But I welcome and
encourage the competition as I think it will help us all.

Tim Daly


--
To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel
URL: http://www.sagemath.org